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by V
When the comments first started rolling in, we were still operating under old assumptions and worked from that point. 

Now we’ve reread it critically and realized that what it actually says is not what we originally read it as. That’s our mistake. And it’s our fault for not treating it more responsibly.

We cannot keep this up so long as it has the potential to hurt another reader. However, the comments will remain on the post as taking them down would be dishonest.

Your editors are now taking a break from Subterfuge for the indeterminate future. We thank you for reading and we wish you all the best.

[Update: The editorial  response is here.

Due to points raised by commentators  — for which we thank you — the editors here at Subterfuge are reviewing the post and the editorial process. We have striven to create a space where our contributors can be honest. We acknowledge that we neglected our editorial duties by not ensuring that the facts given in this opinion piece were backed up.We ask that new comments on this piece include recommendations for further reading and study.

A longer and more detailed response is coming.

Please believe us when we say that it has never been our intention to hurt. Mea culpa.

-The Editors, D & F

Posted on November 22, 2010 at 10:00 am in confessional, expectations and ideals, legal and criminal, LGBTQetc, politics, sex, sexual, unhealthy   |  RSS feed |   Respond   |   Trackback URL

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40 Responses to “”

    
  1. Phil
    November 23, 2010 at 4:19 am

    I would sincerely hope that you would stop thinking that male rape is a ‘good thing in disguise’ if you knew more about the reality of male rape and its impact. There is a significant body of research out there on male rape and sexual assault. You might find it helpful to read some of it. Those of us who work with male victims generally have a favourable view of feminism. However, some feminists do a lot of damage by their denigration of male sexual victimisation and baseless accusatiions. One other thing, on what basis do you claim that punishments for rape are a joke? There has been a nearly 400% increase in the average sentence for rape since the early 1980s.

    Reply
    • V
      November 23, 2010 at 6:52 pm

      I do know about male rape and the impact it has on the victims. Rape is not a joke and it is not a good thing. Which I mentioned several times. I also mentioned that I am aware that it is a shameful thing for me to be thinking more than once and that I am not proud of it.

      And, I base the idea that punishment for rape is little more than a joke, on the fact that rape is not treated like it should be treated. The victim gets put on trial more than the rapist, as often if the victim is living they have to go through telling what happened over and over again to perfect strangers, in hopes they might believe what is being said and punish the rapist. And even then, it is often not a very long sentence. In many instances, five years is all a rapist ends up serving, if that. There is also a statute of limitations, which should not be there. If it is possible to prosecute someone for rape after that time limit, they should be prosecuted. Not get a free pass because the time limit ran out. Rape is brutal, horrific, and all about control for the rapist and taking control away from the victim. And the effects it leaves on survivors and their families are life altering. No matter what gender the survivor is.

      Reply
      • gwallan
        February 1, 2011 at 9:52 am

        And even then, it is often not a very long sentence. In many instances, five years is all a rapist ends up serving, if that.

        Oh dear.

        I was seven when my aunt had her way with me. It was effectively legal at the time because of the gender specific nature of our laws. My state amended those laws in the late nineties. Since that time, out of dozens of female rapists of boys who have fronted our courts, only one of them went to prison at all(it took a woman judge too). ONE! Five years is a fantasy world for us. The concensus among the many similar victims I know close up is that it would be better if it were still legal. That way we wouldn’t have to put up with the media treating those rapists as though they are the real victims and the inevitable denial of justice we know will occur.

  2. feyruhan
    November 24, 2010 at 10:44 am

    The increase in trials does not necessarilly mean that the phenomenon is being taken seriously. As V mentioned, here and elsewhere, a more effective measure for the seriousness with which rape (of men as well as of women) is treated is to look at the kinds of punishments that are handed out, and how often and to what extent those punishments are carried out (early parole on “good behavior”, etc.).
    That more rapists are being tried and (to a lesser extent, I’m sure) convicted means only that more rapists are being brought to trial. The effectiveness of those trials, as can be measured by who is really put on trial–the rapist or the rape victim, what kind of sentence is given, whether the sentence is carried out to the full extent and how often, overall, it is (or is not…) carried out to the full extent, is just as important–if not moreso–than an increase in cases being brought to trial.

    And for the record, I followed the link to Sharon Angle’s “Lemons to lemonade” schpiel and was appalled. Who says that living with the child you bore as a result of rape or incest is any easier to live with than a decision to terminate the pregnancy with an abortion? Has she heard of the cases (rare, I admit; but I will explain in a moment why these still matter in the context of her stance on abortion) where a survivor of rape who finds herself pregnant does decide, at first, to carry out the pregnancy, only to discover that every kick from the baby forces her to physically relive the experience of being raped, to the point where she considers suicide? Sharon Angle suggested that these rare cases should not be mis-used to represent the overall picture of abortion when debating “pro-life” vs. “pro-choice”; and I understand why. BUT, she is advocating for across-the-board, no-excuses-accepted legislation regarding abortion. That would mean that these women would be legally bound to carry out the pregnancy, or else face trial. What’s missing from this proposition is the option of moderation. Having abortions be a legal option does not inherently mean (regardless of where I personally stand on this issue) that any woman, at any stage in her pregnancy, can, for any reason (or “no reason”) have the fully legalized option of terminating the pregnancy through abortion. Having abortions be a legal option CAN mean that there must condiotions for an abortion to be legal after a certain point in the pregnancy, which is more or less what we have now.
    There was an article in a journal some time ago, within the last year or so, about the availability (or really, lack-thereof) of doctors able and willing to perform late-term abortions, and the arguments both for and against were better expressed in that article than I can expect to do, myself.
    All I’ll say, is this: the legalization of abortion does not mean abortions are, will be, or should be, handed out like lollipops at the dentist’s. And stop bringing God’s Plan into this! What kind of God would want you to endure rape or incest???

    Reply
  3. jlandrith
    January 27, 2011 at 1:30 am

    As a male survivor of a female rapist (drugged drink) and male rapist (who I successfully fought off) this was extremely difficult to read. While I understand that you acknowledged the shame you feel when you find yourself believing that men being raped is “a good thing in disguise” that doesn’t make it any easier as a rape survivor for me to be sympathetic to your reasoning. I get your point, but it feels differently on this side of the fence.

    When I’m waking up in the middle of the night over and over and over due to hypervigilance or bad memories, I definitely don’t feel like what happened was “a good thing in disguise.” When I’m spending money I don’t have on therapy rather than on my child, I don’t feel like it was “a good thing in disguise.” When I can’t figure out if I need to curl into a ball and cry, scream my lungs out or put my fist through the wall, I really don’t feel like it was “a good thing in disguise”. When a woman gets on an elevator alone with me, my skin crawls and I have to center myself in order to avoid a panic attack. I don’t see that as “a good thing in disguise” either.

    Stop and think twice? You bet. I don’t think I can ever fully trust any woman again, nor do I feel safe around certain types of men anymore either.

    I don’t see any of that mess as “a good thing in disguise”.

    Reply
    • feyruhan
      January 27, 2011 at 3:21 pm

      Thank you for speaking up and contributing to the discussion. I’m sure this forum seemed potentially dangerous and unwelcoming, emotionally; but let me say as a member of this community (Subterfuge) that your input is most welcome and I’m very sorry for your suffering. As a survivor myself, I have an idea of how difficult it can be, even though as a woman I’m not hit with the exact “double-whammy” that you probably experience.

      Reply
  4. heptet
    January 28, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    This is a really sexist post. It assumes that the only reason rape isn’t taken seriously because Men haven’t felt the fear of attack.

    People hide behind rape myths as a reason to not combat rape and challenge rapist’s behaviour above victims. When you have women blaming women for being raped because they drank, wore short skirt or flirted and you have men blaming men because those men may have been gay or too “weak” to fight the attack off.

    We have a lot of problems in society without women spitefully saying that..oh well, at least it means men will take more notice, however much you admit shame for believing that statement. Men have been victims of rape and abuse for as long as women have. They feel less able to disclose than women do because they feel they should be able to protect themselves as a man.

    Take Jlandrith’s comment above..why does he even need to clarify that his rape by a female perp was the result of being drugged??? Because some people would question his manhood or say it isn’t real rape because getting raped by a woman is ‘getting lucky’. It’s disgusting and society should be ashamed of themselves that men are not afforded the same compassion as women. And both genders deserve a hell of a lot more compassion and understanding than is currently offered by a society so scared of being victims they indulge rape myths and ridiculous ideas of rape prevention.

    Reply
  5. Toysoldier
    January 30, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    V, you are not ashamed. If you were, you would not have written the post in the first place. Whatever shame you may feel likely comes from the response you anticipate, namely that other people might not like what you stated. You are sorry that male victims are offended, not because they are offended. The claim that you cannot change your opinion is nonsense. Would you by that from someone voicing racist views? Would you honestly accept their claim that they just cannot seem to see Asians as people as a valid explanation?

    The reason you feel like a sexist and that you are the kind of hypocritical feminist that many people insist all feminists are is because, with all due respect, you are. There is no other explanation. You must believe boys and men deserve rape and you must take pleasure from the violence committed against them. Otherwise, you would not have written a post defending those views.

    However, you are entitled to your opinions. What you are not entitled to are your own facts. According to the most recent studies, 1 in 6 males are victims of sexual abuse by the age of 16. There are no studies determining the rate of sexual violence against adult men, however, at least 1 in 6 of all men are still victims of childhood sexual abuse. So the notion that men do not have to worry about rape and therefore do not understand it is false. Likewise, the vast majority of violence is committed against males. That boys are not taught to fear violence while girls are taught to be paranoid about violence that will not likely occur does not impact either group’s ability to understand violence. It does impact whether they will report rape if it happens to them, and whether they will consider the act rape at all. It is the latter that results in lower reporting among males. Males are not taught to view themselves as potential rape victims, so many of them do not when they are raped. What occurs today is that more male victims are reporting their abuse, and they are doing it despite having to contend with people making comments like you did in your post.

    Reply
    • roxythekiller
      February 1, 2011 at 1:23 am

      Toy Soldier,
      Thank you for your comment. Although I agree with most of your points, I think you should reread V’s article. Nowhere does she state that boys and men deserve rape and take pleasure from the violence against them. Those are not the views expressed in this post, and she did not defend anyone with those views.

      She acknowledged that the “good thing in disguise” about male rape was that the growth of awareness among men that rape is not just a “women’s problem.” Specifically, she wrote that “Soon, I would not be surprised if men decide it is within even their own best interests if they crack down on rapists, if they treat it as less of a joke and more of a problem that could effect them and their family…”

      Although some men understand what rape is, many men do not. They believe rape is not their problem, and make jokes about it (John McCain did during the 2008 elections.) Law enforcement is still reluctant to recognize date rape, and many college-aged men follow a “code of silence” about rape. They turn a blind eye to predatory behaviors among their friends, and there have been several cases lately about women being raped among crowds of teenagers and 20-something, while the men in the crowd refused to come forward to call law enforcement or give eyewitness testimony (one such case occurred in De Anza university, CA.) Law enforcement also places the burden of proof on the victim, and she is pulled in front of a jury that judges her life and sexuality— but not her attacker’s. The notion that “men do not have to worry about rape” is untrue, but the fact remains that many men DO NOT understand rape (and that includes male rape, or there would be far fewer men making jokes about prisoner rape.)

      Male victims have more to worry about than V’s post, which you should have read more closely. Many Male victims currently seek the awareness V was hoping to raise, and the legal protections she called for in her article.

      Reply
  6. Phil
    January 31, 2011 at 7:47 am

    I agree with Toysoldier on a number of points. Good post!

    I suppose being willing to admit to thinking male rape might be a good thing should at least be commended on the grounds of honesty, I guess it gives some insight into how far we still have to go to challenge negative attitudes towards rape.

    Toysoldier, there are, in fact, a number of studies of male sexual victimisation which include adult and child victimisation rates. For example, A Coxell et al, ‘Lifetime prevalence, characteristics, and associated problems of non-consensual sex in men: cross sectional survey’ (1999) 318 British Medical Journal 846-850. This study can be viewed at: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/318/7187/846

    And Fey, I wasn’t talking about the number of trials, I was talking about the length of prison sentences (as clearly stated). In England and Wales since the early 1980s the average sentence for rape has increased by nearly 400%.

    Reply
    • roxythekiller
      February 1, 2011 at 1:33 am

      Phil— V did not state that male rape was a good thing in and of itself, but rather that the awareness raised from it and its victims could lead to men taking rape more seriously. Although some men do take rape seriously, many do not. This attitude is reflected in laws and rape prevention training that treat rape purely as a “woman’s problem,” and a court system that judges female victims by their lifestyles and sexuality in ways that it does not judge male assailants. This system frequently places the burden of proof on the victim, not the attacker.

      Most victims of rape are still women who are attacked by men, and many men still hold a “code of silence” about predatory behavior among their peers. They often fail to report crimes against women, or give testimony after witnessing a crime. They also frequently joke about rape, and use the word as a joke (John McCain made rape jokes during the ’08 election.) Not all men do this, but all too many tag along due to social norms. They aren’t “bad people,” but they also don’t take rape seriously unless it happens to them or someone they care about. V wrote that she hoped the rising awareness of male victims might change attitudes among this silent majority, and create stronger punishments for rapists.

      Reply
      • heptet
        February 1, 2011 at 4:59 pm

        Most victims of rape are women?? How can you conclusively say that when 99% of male victims feel too ashamed to even come forward?

        I have no idea where you get this idea that men are predatory or code of silence beings any more than women are. Both sexes can be guilty of not reporting a crime or doing nothing to stop a crime in action. Unless your next suggestion would be…well, women are weak and unable to stand up for others…it’s men’s job.

        I have no idea what planet you’re living on if you believe that welcoming male victims because “men will take it more seriously” is somehow not advocating sexual violence against men and boys. Or is it just that you and V are the sort of people who wish your own sufferings on people…because you believe there is no other way to sympathise. I suppose you both cheered when male DV victims came forward – now they know what it is like to be a battered wife!

        Judicial change will not come about just because more male victims come forward and frankly, your attitude does not create a welcoming environment for these survivors to disclose. I wouldn’t want to go to disclose to someone thinking that they would take some small, sick measure of pleasure from it. No…I don’t care what way you frame it, it’s abhorrent to believe these things.

      • revspinnaker
        February 1, 2011 at 10:32 pm

        I’ve paraphrased your comments to apply to maternal child abuse:

        Most victims of [pathological malnurturing] are still [children] attacked by [their own mothers], and many [women] still hold a “code of silence” about [abusive] behavior among their peers. They often fail to report crimes against [children], or give testimony after witnessing a crime. They also frequently joke about [maternal child abuse], and use the issue as a joke [(Joy Behar made a joke about "women who pick out one of their children just to hate them" and had to make a public apology for calling children of philandering politicians mean names.)] Not all [women] do this, but too many tag along due to [the inherent facism of the matriarchy.] They aren’t “bad people,” but they also don’t take [pathological malnurturing] seriously…

        With that in mind, can you see how offensive it would be to say something like, [not that violence against women is ever a good thing, but if it's occurence can draw attention to the issue maternal child abuse, the root cause of abusive behavior in men, then maybe reporting it is a good thing.]

  7. gwallan
    January 31, 2011 at 7:50 am

    But, I must confess…when I hear about it…in a way…I feel like it could be a good thing in disguise.

    Pity you are unable – or should I say unwilling – to disguise your own sadism. Does it rock your boat? Do you get off on it? Bet it works wonders for your own sexual fantasies. I’m male, and a victim. Why don’t you rub one off one my account?

    I’m part of a statewide network which serves thousands of victims of both genders. Your comments about rape not being taken seriously or with mirth are about four decades out of date, at least where female victims are concerned. It’s male victims and victims of female rapists who are disbelieved and mocked in this day.

    Given your obvious ignorance regarding community attitudes could I suggest you refrain from further commentary on the issue altogether. It’s one thing to be an ignorant bigot but it’s a whole new ballgame when you commit words to proving it. Now you are known for the creature you are.

    The most shameful aspect of your production here is your trolling for sympathy as a cover for your own bigotry. There is clearly no capacity for shame in you at all. No amount of pretty words, dissembling and prevarication can hide this shamelessness.

    Know that when you marginalise victims you become a contributor to the harm they endure as a consequence of their experience of abuse. You may as well be a participant abuser.

    One of the activities we make available to survivors involves a large punching bag and a baseball or cricket bat. Survivors are encouraged to deal with their despair by attacking their abusers in proxy. I don’t normally participate. Next opportunity I certainly shall and I shall ensure everybody present knows it is you who is standing in for the bag on this occasion, and the reasons why. Make no mistake it will be greeted with rapturous applause and will induce not a scintilla of shame in myself.

    For you, sir, are a rape apologist of the worst kind and are entirely worthy.

    Reply
  8. Michael
    January 31, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    This post is disgusting and abominable. Rape apology by a woman, against men, is still an apology for rape.

    Thanks to toysoldier for pointing it out. It makes me wonder what kind of people must post to and read this blog. No, I haven’t read any of it other than this post, and I certainly won’t ever again.

    Reply
    • gwallan
      January 31, 2011 at 6:32 pm

      V is a woman? Seriously? I’d assumed it was another of the snivelling, white knight types looking to ingratiate himself with the nastier hardcore feminist element.

      Editors…
      This is what happens when folk play politics with the pain and anguish of others. It’s what happens particularly when that politics is designed to monopolise and to exclude. For too long victims have been cast into the abyss because of their gender or, even more pitifully, the gender of their abuser. It’s well beyond time for that to cease.

      Your “longer and more detailed response” does not need to be longer or more detailed. Nor should it be framed as a response. I strongly suggest you consider the disposition of frying pans and fires.

      Reply
    • roxythekiller
      February 1, 2011 at 1:39 am

      I get the feeling most people commenting here did not get past the first paragraph…. this post does not claim that men deserve to be raped, or anything similar. It states that, as more men get raped, hopefully more men will take rape seriously— and stop treating it as just a woman’s problem. Feel free to disagree, but please don’t TLDR and then write angry comments…

      Reply
      • gwallan
        February 1, 2011 at 2:25 am

        Oh, yes, we did read it. Every vile word. And now we’re getting to read your excuse making and apologia as well. Lift another rock, find another cockroach. That NASTIER hardcore feminist element is YOU.

        The owners/editors have demonstrated some responsibility. Don’t blow it for them.

        By the way I had quite a bit to do with womens’ groups engaged in rape activism in the early eighties. I saw in those women an anger which I respected as being valid and righteous. The angry comments you are seeing from myself and others come from that very same place.

        With the exception of my state of Victoria in Australia male victims who try to get help from rape crisis services are laughed at and called liars. Those services are run by feminist groups and funded by the taxpayer, including those (taxpayer)victims themselves. Is that not nasty? Or will you make excuses for them too?

  9. Phil
    January 31, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    As someone who has responded to the offending post, I would ask that it please be left up (I assume by the reference to the post being ‘reviewed’ that the editors are considering taking it down). It is not the case that the author did not ‘back up’ her comments, she expressed an opinion and while I strongly disagree with it, I defend her right to express it. If such views are censored, how can they be challenged and how can the author learn that, in the opinions of others, there are better ways of looking at the issue of male rape?

    Reply
    • d
      February 1, 2011 at 1:55 am

      Phil, We did consider taking it down, but we have decided to keep it up as an ongoing discussion of the issues herein.

      I greatly appreciate this comment in particular as it reflects my own views: Ignoring opinions we don’t like doesn’t make them go away.

      Thank you to all who have commented. This has been an eye-opening experience for us. We are resolved to learn from it.

      -d

      Reply
  10. V
    January 31, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    I am very sorry that this post has offended so many people. I was in no way trying to say that male rape itself is a good thing. I should certainly have chosen my words better than I did. What I meant was, the fact that we’re seeing more reporting of it is a good thing. Many men do think that rape is not a man’s problem. It is a man’s problem, just like it’s a woman’s problem. Its everyone’s problem. And the fact that more men are beginning to report rape and sexual abuse perpetrated against them by either gender is a good thing. Its a good step toward something actually being done about it, to make it more than the joke it seems to have been for so long.

    “Males are not taught to view themselves as potential rape victims, so many of them do not when they are raped. What occurs today is that more male victims are reporting their abuse, and they are doing it despite having to contend with people making comments like you did in your post.” by Toysoldier, a commenter above, is exactly what I was trying to say in this post. But, I realize that I have obviously not worded the post very well, because this has not gotten through.

    Phil — I want to thank you for giving the information that you have and links. I also wanted to let you know (since you mentioned it) that I have spoken with the editors and they have decided (so far) not to take down the post.

    And to all the male rape survivors, collectively, who have posted here in response to this Confessional, I want to say that I am very sorry for what you have been through. Regardless of gender, rape is atrocious and should never be spoken of or taken lightly. I know that I definitely dropped the ball with this post and the wording thereof and I am deeply sorry.

    And, of course, anyone who can and is willing to give more information to where we and anyone else can find information on male rape, and statistics thereof, is greatly thanked and the information is highly appreciated.

    Reply
    • RevSpinnaker
      February 1, 2011 at 1:50 pm

      Have you even looked on line for the information you claim you’d “appreciate?” While you’re at it, look up the Center for Disease Control or the American Psychiatric Foundation. Both will confirm maternal child abuse and murder have risen 25% since 1985. American women now kill more of their own children than any other mothers in the world.

      Reply
  11. roxythekiller
    February 1, 2011 at 2:54 am

    gwallan — Did you just call me a cockroach? I am a feminist, but I’m not resistant to nuclear radiation or decapitation. It seems you have your own agenda. You also did not answer the points I made on the article (instead of defending yourself, why not comment on the lower half of the article?)

    Anyway. Where are the sources for your “facts?”

    Reply
    • gwallan
      February 1, 2011 at 9:17 am

      “facts?” Scare quotes and all! What point would there be in explaining anything to you? You’re a feminist, thus ANYTHING you say about rape MUST be right, even if it relates to victims of whom you know nothing.

      Maybe you should read what I wrote rather than ordering me to read something I’ve already told you I have read. I don’t give a toss what “points” you have made in defending the indefensible. Why would I bother giving any of it the slightest validity? You merely add to the previous bigotry and become a part of that same. My “agenda” is taking down the bigots and marginalisers and apologists who act to hurt people I care about. I feel no shame and am utterly unapologetic for hating you on their behalf and don’t give a toss if I upset any of your petty little sensibilities.

      V, to her credit, has acknowledged her error and spoken accordingly. Notably that hasn’t stopped the nastier element to which I referred earlier viewing that original mistake and leaping to it’s defense even after V’s apology. Thankyou for helping me demonstrate that truth.

      I’m waiting to see how the editors respond. In the meantime I will not justify myself to apologists such as you but will treat them with extreme prejudice. Take the hint and do not address me again.

      Reply
  12. Michael
    February 1, 2011 at 5:48 am

    V – I don’t believe a word of your “apology,” if you can call it that.

    What if you had said, “I think rape could be a good thing in disguise, because every rape publicizes the problem of rape” with no genders attached? Do you think that’s a defensible statement?

    My wish is that men who minimize the horror of rape would re-examine their feelings and maybe even get counseling. V, my wish for you is that you also re-examine your feelings to try and discover why you think rape is OK – and I don’t think counseling would hurt, either.

    With that, I’m flouncing. Enjoy your pro-rape community, folks.

    Reply
    • V
      February 1, 2011 at 7:04 am

      Hm. Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way. My apology was sincere and I stand by it. I do not think rape is okay. But, I understand that you are upset and you will not believe anything coming from me.

      Reply
  13. RevSpinnaker
    February 1, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    V and roxythekiller: Your mean-spirited vindictive mindset concerning men and boys who are victims of sexual assault is nothing new. Oprah Winfrey has been feeling the same way for 25 years now. At that time I was working with a small group of Chicago men who were sexually abused as children. We helped start the first group therapy sessions for men in the city. We presented panel discussions at national conventions including the DCFS. We were on the Phyllis Levy Radio Show and phone blitzed the Oprah Show to include boys in her discussions about child sexual abuse. Oprah did her first show with male victims of child sexual abuse in 1986, I spoke briefly from the audience. That was the last time she ever acknowledged the issue until her recent “200 Man Show.” To claim that show was “the first of it’s kind” is completely disingenuous. She actually said she had no idea that boys who were sexually abused would later have problems with intimacy. She laments of all the men in prison who were victimized as children. Of course she didn’t mention the fact that as many as 40% of incestuous relations are perpetrated by women. Oprah and feminists like you have been covering for predatory and abusive women for decades. If Oprah really cared about child abuse she would have included boys in the discussion from the beginning. But she consciously chose to distort the issue and let innocent children wallow in silence. You feel your hostility to men is a form of reverse sexism. Not so, it’s your own sexism, not ours. In guyville we have a saying, “evil prevails when good men do nothing.” When it comes to maternal child abuse, you vagina people really need to Man-Up.

    Reply
  14. d
    February 1, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    We, the editors, take the activity surrounding the post “He’s Asking For It” very seriously. We’ve taken several days to sort through our own feelings and prejudices in order to craft our responses.

    Our response can be found here: http://subterfusex.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/the-power-of-words/

    Reply
    • RevSpinnaker
      February 4, 2011 at 10:54 pm

      F’s contrite response is well written and worth the read. Posting such an inflammatory article without a disclaimer is dubious to say the least, on the part of the editors. I do, however, commend their leaving the post up and posting some pretty hostile responses. They are not unwarrented and seem to have changed some attitudes. Most feminist sites don’t post anything that doesn’t tow the party line. I appreciate your open-mindedness and respect for civil discourse. Don’t take too long a break, you were just getting started.

      Reply
  15. typhonblue
    February 1, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    My God.

    Well, another piece to put in my ‘why I’m not a feminist’ file.

    Men grow up thinking the only time they’d have to worry about being raped is if they go to prison, and then only if they aren’t tough, strong and smart enough to keep it from happening.

    You’re right. Men grow up thinking that they don’t have to worry about anything if they’re tough and strong; of course the other side of the coin is that if they aren’t tough and strong society thinks they deserve everything that happens to them.

    So if a man is ever victimized it’s neatly wrapped up as his fault, no need to bother anyone to help him. Case closed.

    In this way, maybe the fact that more men are being raped and it’s being reported more often will be good for society as a whole in the end, because it will lead to better laws and regulations in the long run.

    That’s interesting. Because, I think, if rape only happened to men it would probably be still be completely legal and unremarked upon.

    If men require assistance then they aren’t worthy of it. If men are hurt then they let it happen. If men are raped then… what? Men can’t be raped!

    Male rape victims have almost no resources and are rarely believed, particularly if their abusers were female.

    On what… basis do you think that having more male rape victims will lead to better treatment for female rape victims?

    Despite the fact that I know…I know, that I am doing the same thing men do, just reversed.

    No. You’re not doing something men do. Because most men don’t think women being raped somehow benefits society.

    In fact I hazard that almost all men don’t believe it. Even those men who might question an individual woman’s story or tell a dirty joke or ‘objectify women’.

    BTW, this is possibly the most disgusting thing you’ve said in your entire article. And one of the most disgusting things I’ve read in a while.

    What do you think men are? I’m using what quite consciously here. Are they some sort of always chaotic evil, venom and acid spitting monsters that crawled out of cthulu’s ass?

    So, why can’t I stop?

    Let me give you the answer you are fishing for.

    BECAUZ UR SOOO JUSTiFID SOUL SISTER! PREACH IT!

    Now I’ll give you my answer. Why can’t you stop dehumanizing a group of people? Because you’re hate stimming. You enjoy the feeling of righteous anger and loathing as you spew your bile all over a group of people who happen to include individuals that I love very deeply.

    Your title is incredibly ironic, BTW. Why? Because just getting to the point where the defence says ‘he was asking for it’ would be an enormous and almost unfathomable leap forward for male victims of sexual violence by women.

    Why is that? Because ‘he was asking for it’ is just the goddamn default for male victims of female sexual violence. The prosecution has to actually prove ‘he was not asking for it’.

    If people started saying ‘he was asking for it’ because he flirted/got drunk/wore tight jeans, that implies a man has to do actually something more then simply have a penis to be ‘asking for it.’ Gwallan, toy soldier, landrith and other male victims of female sexual abuse would be dancing in the fucking streets if the day ever arrived where a man raped by a woman was said to ‘have been asking for it because of [insert behavior].’

    It would mean a total sea change in social attitudes; a quantum leap forward for male victims of female sexual violence. The idea that a man can NOT be asking for it!

    Now let’s imagine, for a moment, that all the evidence that men are quite commonly sexually exploited by women is true*, possibly as commonly exploited as women are by men. I know, it’s a stretch… but let’s go with it!

    So what you’re doing here, with your post, is taking pleasure in the violation of a group of people who run an equal risk of being violated as you but with less protections or resources then yourself because somehow you think that will result in you having more protections.

    Stay classy, feminism!

    * 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf
    * 94% of youth in correctional facilities reported being sexually abused by female staff. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf
    * Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf
    * 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdfAll

    Reply
    • typhonblue
      February 1, 2011 at 11:44 pm

      Gwallan, toy soldier, landrith and other male victims of female sexual abuse would be dancing in the fucking streets if the day ever arrived where a man raped by a woman was said to ‘have been asking for it because of [insert behavior].’

      By this I mean that the argument ‘he was asking for it’ presumes that a man could ‘not be asking for it’. Which is a massive step forward from ‘he has a penis therefore he consented.’

      If we lived in a society where the automatic response to a man describing sexual assault by a female was the usual victim-blaming rhetoric associated with a woman describing sexual assault by a male… that would actually be progress for male victims. Because that would mean our average joe or jane who doesn’t particularly want to be jarred out of their comfort zone through empathy with a rape victim would actually have to stretch their powers of denial further to invisibalize male victims.

      Hey, maybe that would finally make denial more exhausting then empathy!

      Reply
  16. typhonblue
    February 2, 2011 at 12:39 am

    Sorry for the triple post but this really stuck in my craw:

    Despite the fact that I know…I know, that I am doing the same thing men do, just reversed.

    The author is saying that men think the rape of women is a benefit to society. Repeat. The author is saying that men think the rape of women is a benefit to society.

    Here we see the author justifying her own prejudice by saying the target of her bigotry believes the same thing she does except ‘reversed’. This, of course, renders her bigotry legitimate.

    I think here is where a lot of rage at this piece is being engendered.

    It’s not just that the author implies that male rape victims get better treatment then female; that the only reason female rape victims are marginalized is because men aren’t raped enough; that she secretly delights in the fact that men get raped.

    No.

    What’s really monsterous about this article is that the author is taking her attitude towards male rape victims, projecting it onto men–that men see female rape victims the way she sees male rape victims–then using her projected reality to justify herself.

    All while implying that the real reason her attitudes are bad is because it ‘lowers’ her to the moral level of those always-chaotic-evil, venom and acid spitting, cthulu-ass-spawned man-beasts.

    Fuck. This. Shit.

    So, why can’t I stop?

    Why cant you stop dear? Because you don’t really want to.

    You have all your rationalizations set up in a neat little row; you can hate all you want on men because men ‘obviously’ are so hateful and worthy of being hated.

    Fuck my ‘why I don’t call myself a feminist’ file; this is going in my ‘I’m ashamed to call myself a woman file.’

    Reply
  17. gwallan
    May 11, 2011 at 1:08 am

    Why has your editorial response been removed?

    Reply

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